From rull <-at-> rhino.chem.ruu.nl Fri Nov 24 11:53:16 1995 Received: from chemail.chem.ruu.nl for rull (- at -) rhino.chem.ruu.nl by www.ccl.net (8.6.10/950822.1) id LAA21395; Fri, 24 Nov 1995 11:53:13 -0500 Received: from rhino (rhino.chem.ruu.nl) by chemail.chem.ruu.nl with SMTP id AA27075 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for < ^at^ chemail.chem.ruu.nl:chemistry ^at^ www.ccl.net>); Fri, 24 Nov 1995 17:54:20 +0100 Received: by rhino (931110.SGI/930416.SGI.AUTO) for -0at0-chemail.chem.ruu.nl:chemistry-0at0-www.ccl.net id AA18741; Fri, 24 Nov 95 17:53:33 GMT From: "Ton Rullmann" Message-Id: <9511241753.ZM18739' at \`rhino.chem.ruu.nl> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 17:53:28 +0000 Reply-To: rull.,at,.ruuci9.chem.ruu.nl To: chemistry { *at * } www.ccl.net Subject: MachTen (Unix for Mac) - summary A few weeks ago I asked for info about MachTen, an implementation of Unix for Macintosh. A summary of the replies - all favourable - is included below. I also learned that an article about MachTen (focusing on its use as Internet Server) appeared in MacUser of March, 1995. Since one or two people asked about X-window implementations for Mac, I try to summarize a few things that have been sent on the ccl. * MachTen supports X11R5. In some versions you have to buy the X-window software separately (see info available from Tenon Intersystems, 1123 Chapala St. Suite 202, Santa Barbara, CA, 93101 (805) 963-6983, (805) 962-8202 fax sales &$at$& tenon.com, http://www.tenon.com/ ) * Linux might be an alternative, when a port to Mac (apparently under way) is ready. * MacX is mentioned several times. This is an Apple product. I have seen it in action, and was happily surprised by the speed on a Power Mac 8100. It has iconizable windows that are displayed on the Mac desktop (in "rootless mode"), and all settings and documents can be saved in startup documents. * An (incomplete??) mail recently sent by Raymond C. Fort, Jr. (rcfort (+ at +) maine.maine.edu) on the ccl mentions a product called Xoftware, but I have no idea what it is. Thanks to everybody who replied, and sorry for the delay in summarizing. Ton Rullmann. *********************************************************************** We are also trying to obtain information regarding MachTen. Unfortuneately we have been playing "phone-tag" with the technical staff at Tenon. If and when we learn more we will communicate that to you. Please send us your summary of responses. Thanks, Carol Carol Parish Ph.D. Department of Chemistry carol.,at,.still3.chem.columbia.edu Columbia University (212) 854-5143 New York, NY 10027 (718) 981-0356 *********************************************************************** Heb er al het een en het ander van gehoord (meestal vrij positief). Hou je mij op de hoogte van de antwoorden (kan ik op mijn Power Mac thuis ook Unix draaien :-) P.S. Er is een port naar de Power Mac bezig van Linux. [my translation: Have heard some things about it, mostly reasonably positive. Keep me posted, so I can run Unix at my PowerMac at home :-) PS. Linux is being ported to Power Mac.] Kris Boulez (Kris.Boulez %-% at %-% rug.ac.be) Biomolecular NMR unit University of Ghent, Belgium *********************************************************************** I'm very satisfied. In fact, the existance of Machten influenced my decision to purchace a Mac (PowerPC 7100/80) over a Pentium based PC. (especially since I really hated the idea of using MicroSerf Dog and MicroSerf Windoze!) The latest PPC release (4.0) is really nice (even though it doesn't use virtual memory...) and comes with native X11R5. A few caveats if you're doing code development the g77 compiler is buggy, but that's a problem with g77 and not Machten. Since g77 is basically an interpreter for gcc, I'm not too surprized...besides it's still a "beta" release. The c-compiler (gcc) is pretty nice, although here are some pecularities that folks have reported. Fortunately, there's a pretty active e-mail list which can very useful in finding folks who have solved whaat ever new problem you discover. Plus the MachTen support staff is really top-notch. As far as speed. MachTen runs as a application and interacts fully with the MacOS...So, you get the full benefits of the PPC chip. Also, you can adjust the scheduling preferences (Mac vs. Unix) using the control panel...so if you're running code, crank up the Unix or turn it down when using Mac applications. I usually keep things set at about 60:40 Mac:Unix since I mainly use MT for TCP/IP, mail, and httpd services. When I get some time, I plan to compare its number crunching capabilities with some other computers we have around. For a UnixOS...it is as good as anything I've used, and in many ways easier to administer. Installation is a no-brainer. The CD-rom comes with with everything ready to go. Compatability. Again, it's just like using unix on a Sun station...only you have all the features of a Mac as a plus. There are some quirks and system hang-ups every once in a while, but I'm nott totally convinced MT is to blame. System requirements: I have 49Mbytes RAM which I find to be OK as along as I don't have a lot of other applications. (24 Mbytes is builtin and the remainder is virual) Right now, (running just the Finder and MachTen with about 10 mac windows open) the finder is using 8Mbytes and MT 4Mbytes...Cranking up X11 will boost the memory used by the *finder* up to about 10 or 11 Mbytes and each new x-window or application will eat up about .75 Mbytes. Emacs is a real memory hog (no as bad as MSWord)...but MachTen comes with BBEdit, which is very nice as a small memory footprint editor. There are some tricks one has to play in order to move Mac files and Unix files, especially if you're like me and have a laser printer hooked up to remote unix machine. The problem is that Mac files have both resource and data forks where as unix uses only data forks. Of course the folks at Tenon have realized this and provide useful filters for converting back and forth. Unlike linux, you can switch baack aand forth between unix and mac by just clicking. You can move Mac files into the unix folder and vice versa. Using links, you can mount Mac folders in the unix folder. External disks (Zip disks, floppies, and CDs) are mounted automatically in a unix volume so that you can "cd" right on to the disk. Eric Dr. Eric R. Bittner phone: (512)-471-1092 Dept. of Chemistry and Biochemistry fax: (512)-471-16224 Univ. of Texas at Austin email: bittner #*at*# eiger.cm.utexas.edu http://eiger.cm.utexas.edu *********************************************************************** I use it, and overall, I like it. The X/Windows implmentation is certainly better than Mac/X and (I think) at least as good as eXceed or eXodus. MacTen is based on the Mach kernel (of course), and it shows in places: MachTen claims to be 4.3BSD, but it's not *really*. Most things can be compiled with a bit of work; some things cannot without a LOT of work. Some things, like mmap() are hopelessly broken. This is all regarding the 68k version, btw (MachTen 2.2). I haven't tried the PowerMac version, but from what I understand, It would be best to wait for the second (or third...) release, as some vital features (virtual memory, linking against Xlib) aren't there yet! Ernest Friedman-Hill Phone: (510) 294-2154 Scientific Computing FAX: (510) 294-2234 Sandia National Labs ejfried %! at !% ca.sandia.gov Org. 8117, MS 9214 http://herzberg.ca.sandia.gov PO Box 969 Livermore, CA 94550 *********************************************************************** Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 15:50:22 -0500 From: rcfort "at@at" maine.maine.edu (Raymond C. Fort, Jr.) Subject: CCL:Summary of X-clients [...stuff deleted...] MacX was the only software mentioned for Macintoshes, with positive experiences reported by Stephen Bowlus (BOWLUS "at@at" sandoz.com), Per Arvidsson (arvid : at : oc.chalmers.se), Dave Young (young # - at - # slater.cem.msu.edu), and Craig Burkhart (cburkhart $#at#$ goodyear.com). We have some small experience with MacX ourselves, and find it usable, although a bit clunky. [...stuff deleted...] *********************************************************************** Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:56:27 -0500 Logic, Inc. (sales (+ at +) age.com). Katie Breen was particularly helpful in faxing me a copy of the sales brochure. Xoftware comes in versions for both PC and Mac; Craig Martens (cmartens "-at-" uci.edu) has a positive experience with the Mac version. We will order trial [...stuff deleted...] Professor Ray Fort, Jr. Voice: (207)-581-1180 Department of Chemistry FAX: (207)-581-1191 University of Maine E-mail: rcfort { *at * } maine.maine.edu Orono ME 04469 rfortjr : at : fort.umeche.maine.edu *********************************************************************** Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:43:52 -0500 (EST) From: Phil Bays Subject: CCL:X windows on the Power PC We use all our MacIntoshes as X displays for Felix successfully, using the software MaxX. A couple of years ago I believe MacX sold for about $200. All of our Macs and SGIs are of course connected over an ethernet, thus MacX allows us also to use the Mac as an X terminal for workstations. The trickiest part about getting Felix to display thru MacX is getting the settings in the MacX setup correct. Once you have installed MacX on your MacIntosh, start it up, and under Remote choose Edit Command. The command line you enter must be: /usr/bin/X11/xterm -ls -title " \\at// host xterm" -sb -display " \\at// display" where I've used the \\at// symbol here in place of the R-in-a-circle symbol (the trademark symbol---I don't remember how to make it on the Mac). Then, Command Name can just be the user's login name for the SGI. Display MUST be (2)Color Rootless Output Save For Host, add your SGI's hostname to the list and choose it. For Method, we use MacTCP Tool, already installed on our Mac. This works well for us. I know that there are variations of the command line above that starts with /usr/bin...... becasue once I had to work with a Mac expert to get it to work on someone else's Mac, and I know we ended up with soemthing slightly different from above. Also that particular time we kept running into out-of-memory errors from the Mac, and all she then did was increase the Mac's virtual memory and everything was fine. There is a more complete writeup of how to do this in my old Biosym notebook from when I was still at Biosym, so if you have a Customer Support contract with Biosym, simply send them email at rcenter at.at biosym.com and request the instructions for doing this--the person in the Felix support job now will know what to send you. Kelly Keating Dept. of Chemistry Emory University Atlanta, GA 30322 *********************************************************************** -- J.A.C. Rullmann http://www-nmr.chem.ruu.nl/users/rull/rull.html Bijvoet Center for Biomolecular Research E-mail : rull at.at nmr.chem.ruu.nl Utrecht University, Padualaan 8, Phone : int+31.30.2533641 3584 CH Utrecht, the Netherlands Fax : int+31.30.2537623 ^ NOTE: phone numbers have changed - insert a 2