Dear Prof. Mannock and others,

=A0=A0= It seems that people by now are convinced with the fact that piracy is on= ly observed and practiced in third world countries. This made me write this= email just to draw your attention to the other side of the picture.
=A0
=A0=A0 It is really unfortunate that such a generalized comment (pir= acy in third world countries, specially in India and China) is coming from = a responsible person like Prof. Mannock. I don't want to make any emoti= onal comments here rather would go for the facts obtained from my personal = experiences. I had to stay in one of the western very developed countries f= or some time where I have seen people downloading not only pirated software= s, also enormous amount of pirated movies/serials. What do you call watchin= g a football match online (of course via pirated streaming). Piracy is an i= ssue of course that I should not ignore and I also don't disagree the f= act that in India piracy is there..what I can not agree is that it is only = prevalent in India and China or other "third world" countries (ex= cept other western "third world" countries).=A0

=A0 I can't say anything about piracy in other western countries, l= ike USA, but from your first email I have got the idea that in Canada pirac= y is practiced and you do refer pirated version of the books when necessary= .

=A0 Regarding the reduced price of the text books, its totally justifie= d as the price should be relative to the local market which, I suppose, dep= ends on the production and marketing cost. =A0 =A0

=A0Regards,<= br> =A0AB

Mauricio, I understand your viewpoint and the piracy issue. It was not my <= br> intention to completely trivialize the issue. I stand by what I said, that<= br> for some countries, the universities do not have enough money for teaching<= br> and students cannot afford text books and software. I seem to recall about<= br> 5
years ago, there were issues with Indian and Chinese publishers reproducing=
textbooks for students at a tenth of the price that we pay. Yes, libraries<= br> have books, but not 300 copies of each title. The same could be said for software in some countries, although not in Canada or Argentina. Also, many=
areas of science do not have a business opportunity available to them to raise funds to buy supplies. Academics producing books and software have that opportunity and consider it as part of their profession and protect those rights. Yet many do not share the revenue with the academic
intitution
where they are employed. I work in a biphysics lab that does a lot of
chemical synthesis, any outside consulting that we do is supposed to be
negotiated through a local university office so that the university can get=
its cut for providing us with space and library facilities. A book or
software should be covered by the same rules unless it did not utilize any<= br> of those facilities in my opinion. If the issue really is piracy, then the<= br> academic institution is better equipped to chase people and other
institutions who pirate books or software than the author of the product. So
as you can see, I agree that theft is an issue that needs to be dealt with,=
but the authors are not able to follow up the issue in law, so I think that=
it is better to have a university partner in business that can protect
those
rights.

Finally, as a related side issue here, I would like to ask another
question.
Some scientific labs produce patentable work/products. How many of those patents are licensed to companies to generate local jobs? Here is Canada, many chemical and pharmaceutical companies are either small spin-offs with<= br> no cash, or satellites of multinational companies who use the technology elsewhere. Thus, Canadian patents may generate money for the university and=
a few inventors, but not generate any local jobs. what are other peoples experience with these situations? Dave

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 10:20 AM, Mauricio Federico Erben erben.:.
quimica.unlp.edu.a= r <owner-chemistry-*-cc= l.net> wrote:

> =A0Dave, I have some doubts regarding the terms you present the proble= m,
> especially about the role of the =96assumed- third world piracy.
>
> As far as I know -for example in Argentina- the science bureau pays fo= r
the
> access to journals from several "first world" editorials, an= d the cost is
> not inexpensive, actually. Indeed, in relative terms, the access to th= e
> information is a quite elevate amount of our modest science budgets. T= he
> same apply for the computer programs and books available in our
> universities.
>
> The property of the knowledge, including copyright and other topics, i= s a
> very interesting issue to be discussed, but the =93unfortunate reality= in
the
> third world=94, -even when only science is concerning- is beyond
piracy=85
> please don=92t trivialize the question.
>
> Best regard,
>
> Mauricio.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* David A Mannock dmannock,ualberta.ca <owner-chemistry],[ccl.net>
> *To:* Erben, Mauricio Federico <erben],[quimica.unlp.edu.ar>
> *Sent:* Monday, May 02, 2011 6:28 PM
> *Subject:* CCL: To begin with computational chemistry
>
> Jim, I know. I feel guilty every time a take an egg > from a chicke= n or
go
> to a cut-price movie theatre. lol The unfortunate reality is that in t= he
> third world piracy of software and text books is commonplace and there= is
> little that we can do to stop it. In order to stop it and bring those<= br> > countries into line, there have to be electronic options put in place = for
> teaching purposes. Once qualified, many of those people will probably = buy
a
> hard copy to put on their bookshelf if they continue in science.
Personally,
> I smile when I see someone copy a paragraph or two from one of my pape= rs
> into their own "original" work. In reality, since knowledge = is power, and
I
> occasionally have to pay an advertizing fee to publish, I wonder if I<= br> should
> not be getting a royalty payment everytime someone downloads or
photocopies
> my papers. Hmm! I wonder if I could afford a Lamborghini just like my<= br> > brothers after all? Dave
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Jim Kress ccl_nospam++kressworks.com <
> owner-chemistry:ccl.net> wrote:
>
>> There is no justification for theft.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim Kress
>>
>>
>>
>> > From: owner-chemistry+ccl_nospam=3D=3D kressworks.com]_[ccl.net
>> [mailto:owner-chemistry+ccl_nospam=3D=3Dkressworks.com]_[ccl.net] On Behalf
>> Of
>> David A Mannock dmannock(-)ualberta.ca
>> Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 5:13 PM
>> To: Kress, Jim
>> Subject: CCL: To begin with computational chemistry
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris, as a newbie to computational chemistry, I try to use every<= br> resource
>> that I can get hold of. I have to admit that I sometimes pirate electronic
>> copies to help me search texts which are often long and complicate= d. A
>> recent point relevant to this issue is Jacob Israelachvili's >> "Intermolecular
>> and surface forces", 2nd Edn. As our lab copy disappeared int= o a black
>> hole
>> known as my colleagues basement, I found a pirated online copy of = this
>> essential text. I later bought a second-hand hard copy, while awai= ting
the
>> appearance of the 3rd Edition, which was due to appear in 2010, bu= t came
>> out
>> in 2011. I have read the 1991 2nd edition cover to cover and have<= br> returned
>> to it in order to refresh my memory many times. After talking to J= acob
>> Israelachvili, he explained the delays in getting the 3rd edition = to
press
>> and told me when it would be available. Within a week of it coming= off
the
>> presses, I had bought a copy from Amazon out of my own pocket. The= new
>> edition is several hundred pages longer than the previous copy and= an
>> electronic version would be useful to me. It is a beautifully writ= ten
>> masterpiece in my opinion. However, many publishers are slow in th= eir
move
>> into the electronic realm. This is where the future lies.
>>
>> My job ends here on June 30th, 2011, but I still have responsibili= ties
for
>> writing up papers for a student. I will not have access to online<= br> library
>> facilities here because of local University policy. Despite this, = I
would
>> still be willing to buy a new edition of your book to help with my=
>> calculations on my Linux box. I would do this out of my own pocket= if
need
>> be.
>>
>> As I see it, one of the main purposes of text books is to put all = of the
>> knowledge in a certain area in one place for ease of reference. I = think
>> that
>> this is very valuable for those of us who do research and those wh= o
teach.
>> Putting together a new edition of your book would be recognized as= a
>> valuable contribution by people in this scientific area, but rathe= r than
>> be
>> pessimistic about piracy, ask your publishers to make an electroni= c copy
>> available for sale at 50% of the price of the softcover. A univers= ity
>> could
>> either buy a yearly site license for distribution to students at a= lower
>> price, or the institution could host a copy which could be read on= line,
>> but
>> not downloaded. There will always be people who want to get someth= ing
for
>> nothing and who are willing to remove the encryption on electronic=
media,
>> the simplest solution is to make the text available at a lower cos= t for
>> academic use and make some money rather than none. You should be t= alking
>> to
>> your publisher about this policy, as it will help their bottom lin= e and
>> your
>> standard of living in your retirement!! So cheer up and realize th= at old
>> dogs, like myself, would rather sit on a sun lounger on my back po= rch
>> reading your new edition, than sitting at a computer screen in the= lab
or
>> in
>> my study! David Mannock
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Christopher Cramer cramer+/-umn.edu
>> <owner-chemistry++= ccl.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sent to CCL by: Christopher Cramer [cramer-$-umn.edu]
>> My...
>>
>> The least you can do if you're going to steal the book, and po= st it
online
>> for piracy, is choose a later printing -- then people won't ha= ve to
refer
>> to
>> so many errata.
>>
>> Now I recall why I've been reluctant to devote the time to a 3= rd
>> edition...
>>
>> CJC
>>
>>