From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Jun 10 04:54:01 2025 From: "Grigoriy Zhurko reg_zhurko(~)chemcraftprog.com" To: CCL Subject: CCL:G: Spreading of chemistry software compiled without code signing Message-Id: <-55316-250610042359-25196-fpkNlJJo5oGbsGY5X01a4w.@.server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Grigoriy Zhurko Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 11:23:49 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: Grigoriy Zhurko [reg_zhurko{=}chemcraftprog.com] Hello, My program Chemcraft is compiled without code signing, and this causes problems, in particular the Microsoft Defender SmartScreen firstly shows a warning message when installing Chemcraft (the user needs to click "More info" link and then press the button "Run anyway"). I have explained this at Chemcraft download webpage: https://chemcraftprog.com/download.html Currently it is rather difficult for me to add the code signing to Chemcraft. Now I am thinking: possibly it will be useful for others if I keep the distribution unsigned, because this politics can help small developers of chemistry software (usually freeware)? As far as I can see, current politics of tightening the screws with the code signing in the Western world is used for suppression of the private enterprise, and it is a part of current trends like switching from commercial Gaussian to state-funded ORCA, with the main goal to keep the power and money of the 1% richest population (ruling class). Sorry for such a political post here, but I hope that some people will support my position. My point is that for many small developers of scientific software (especially freeware) it is difficult to add code signing to their programs, and because of that, if Chemcraft remains unsigned, this will increase the chances that code signing will not finally become obligatory, so common scientists will have more possibilities of developing their own software. What do you think? Grigoriy Zhurko https://chemcraftprog.com From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Jun 10 12:25:00 2025 From: "Andrew Dalke dalke .. dalkescientific.com" To: CCL Subject: CCL:G: Spreading of chemistry software compiled without code signing Message-Id: <-55317-250610091151-8447-71pBc8waJF0SEQ7Ti0qHOg^_^server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Andrew Dalke Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 15:11:29 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51\)) Sent to CCL by: Andrew Dalke [dalke .. dalkescientific.com] Hi Grigoriy, I am not a potential user of your software. I am another vendor. I sell a commercial software package for cheminformatics fingerprints. My analysis is essentially the same as yours. Microsoft and Apple want to be gatekeepers who directly profit from all software developed for their platforms. They benefit by pushing lock-in in the name of safety. I have been a Mac user for over 20 years, but started the transition to Kubuntu last year when Apple made it more difficult to run software which wasn't code-signed, which I see as part of the long term goal to block independent, third-party vendors. Moreover, I am strongly against the control that US companies and the US government have over my daily life here in Sweden. We have only to read the news about European governments (and your Canadian government) belatedly realizing they need to get out of the US IT trap and manage their own digital sovereignty. We need the same for our business and our selves, which is no easy task. There are a few programs I install which are not co-signed. Their solution, like yours, is to document the reason and describe the work-around, like at https://docs.freetubeapp.io/faq/ ("FreeTube is not currently signed because the licenses to sign applications for Windows are expensive and we’d like to avoid putting a lot of money into the project." and for macOS "You can easily fix this by running the following command in the Terminal app.") There are many reasons to stop using Microsoft tools, but I also know that leaving might not be economically feasible. As Timothy Snyder suggests, "Do not obey in advance." I support your decision to not code-sign. Best regards, Andrew dalke_+_dalkescientific.com > On Jun 10, 2025, at 10:23, Grigoriy Zhurko reg_zhurko(~)chemcraftprog.com wrote: > Currently it is rather difficult for me to add the code signing to Chemcraft. Now I am thinking: possibly it will be useful for others if I keep the distribution unsigned, because this politics can help small developers of chemistry software (usually freeware)? > As far as I can see, current politics of tightening the screws with the code signing in the Western world is used for suppression of the private enterprise, and it is a part of current trends like switching from commercial Gaussian to state-funded ORCA, with the main goal to keep the power and money of the 1% richest population (ruling class). ... > My point is that for many small developers of scientific software (especially freeware) it is difficult to add code signing to their programs, and because of that, if Chemcraft remains unsigned, this will increase the chances that code signing will not finally become obligatory, so common scientists will have more possibilities of developing their own software. What do you think? From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Jun 10 16:19:00 2025 From: "Cristian Bologa CBologa[#]salud.unm.edu" To: CCL Subject: CCL:G: Spreading of chemistry software compiled without code signing Message-Id: <-55318-250610161330-26451-+FA7S1yBM3DPv7HlrX4zUA###server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Cristian Bologa Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN7PR13MB6132E47B17E039F887F47B73FC6AASN7PR13MB6132namp_" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2025 20:13:18 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: Cristian Bologa [CBologa*o*salud.unm.edu] --_000_SN7PR13MB6132E47B17E039F887F47B73FC6AASN7PR13MB6132namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Starting from June 2025, individual developers can publish apps to the Mic= rosoft for free." https://ai.plainenglish.io/microsoft-just-went-crazy-182bb62bbad5 ________________________________ > From: owner-chemistry+cbologa=3D=3Dsalud.unm.edu{=}ccl.net on behalf of Andrew Dalke dalke .. dalke= scientific.com Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2025 7:11 AM To: Cristian Bologa Subject: CCL:G: Spreading of chemistry software compiled without code signi= ng [[-- External - this message has been sent from outside the University --]] Sent to CCL by: Andrew Dalke [dalke .. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://d= alkescientific.com__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35V= lDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9ABobWy-$ ] Hi Grigoriy, I am not a potential user of your software. I am another vendor. I sell a= commercial software package for cheminformatics fingerprints. My analysis is essentially the same as yours. Microsoft and Apple want to b= e gatekeepers who directly profit from all software developed for their pla= tforms. They benefit by pushing lock-in in the name of safety. I have been = a Mac user for over 20 years, but started the transition to Kubuntu last ye= ar when Apple made it more difficult to run software which wasn't code-sign= ed, which I see as part of the long term goal to block independent, third-p= arty vendors. Moreover, I am strongly against the control that US companies and the US go= vernment have over my daily life here in Sweden. We have only to read the n= ews about European governments (and your Canadian government) belatedly rea= lizing they need to get out of the US IT trap and manage their own digital = sovereignty. We need the same for our business and our selves, which is no = easy task. There are a few programs I install which are not co-signed. Their solution,= like yours, is to document the reason and describe the work-around, like a= t https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.freetubeapp.io/faq/__;!!KXH1hvEX= yw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iL= AVEmFoCRhl9u9Gsj4eJI$ ("FreeTube is not currently signed because the licen= ses to sign applications for Windows are expensive and we=92d like to avoid= putting a lot of money into the project." and for macOS "You can easily fi= x this by running the following command in the Terminal app.") There are many reasons to stop using Microsoft tools, but I also know that = leaving might not be economically feasible. As Timothy Snyder suggests, "Do= not obey in advance." I support your decision to not code-sign. Best regards, Andrew dalke#%#https://urldefense.com/v3/_= _http://dalkescientific.com__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-= P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9ABobWy-$ > On Jun 10, 2025, at 10:23, Grigoriy Zhurko reg_zhurko(~)https://urldefens= e.com/v3/__http://chemcraftprog.com__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4= tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9Pelxo8t$ wrote: > Currently it is rather difficult for me to add the code signing to Chemc= raft. Now I am thinking: possibly it will be useful for others if I keep th= e distribution unsigned, because this politics can help small developers of= chemistry software (usually freeware)? > As far as I can see, current politics of tightening the screws with the = code signing in the Western world is used for suppression of the private en= terprise, and it is a part of current trends like switching from commercial= Gaussian to state-funded ORCA, with the main goal to keep the power and mo= ney of the 1% richest population (ruling class). ... > My point is that for many small developers of scientific software (especi= ally freeware) it is difficult to add code signing to their programs, and b= ecause of that, if Chemcraft remains unsigned, this will increase the chanc= es that code signing will not finally become obligatory, so common scientis= ts will have more possibilities of developing their own software. What do y= ou think? -=3D This is automatically added to each message by the mailing script =3D-https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_m= essage__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLD= MyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9ETkc9IE$https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_m= essage__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLD= MyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9ETkc9IE$https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/chemistry/sub_unsub.sh= tml__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyI= RI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9AuRcEo7$ Before posting, check wait time at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.= ccl.net__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYL= DMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9DByOX0d$ Job: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/jobs__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djn= rw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFo= CRhl9u9IwamGwk$ Conferences: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://server.ccl.net/chemistry/an= nouncements/conferences/__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6h= biB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9INpujgV$ Search Messages: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/chemistry/s= earchccl/index.shtml__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB3= 5VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9CFFfz5d$https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/spammers.txt__;!!KXH1h= vEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy= 7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9IIdVfoK$ RTFI: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/chemistry/aboutccl/ins= tructions/__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_j= NYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9Butu6CQ$ --_000_SN7PR13MB6132E47B17E039F887F47B73FC6AASN7PR13MB6132namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Starting from June 2025, individual developers can publish apps to the Microsoft fo= r free."

From: owner-chemistry+cbolo= ga=3D=3Dsalud.unm.edu{=}ccl.net <owner-chemistry+cbologa=3D=3Dsalud.unm.ed= u{=}ccl.net> on behalf of Andrew Dalke dalke .. dalkescientific.com <owner-chemistry{=}ccl.net>
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2025 7:11 AM
To: Cristian Bologa <CBologa{=}salud.unm.edu>
Subject: CCL:G: Spreading of chemistry software compiled without cod= e signing
 

[[-- External - this message has been sent from outside the University --]]=


Sent to CCL by: Andrew Dalke [dalke .. https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dalkescientific.com__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw= 5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCR= hl9u9ABobWy-$ ]
Hi Grigoriy,

  I am not a potential user of your software. I am another vendor. I s= ell a commercial software package for cheminformatics fingerprints.

My analysis is essentially the same as yours. Microsoft and Apple want to b= e gatekeepers who directly profit from all software developed for their pla= tforms. They benefit by pushing lock-in in the name of safety. I have been = a Mac user for over 20 years, but started the transition to Kubuntu last year when Apple made it more diffic= ult to run software which wasn't code-signed, which I see as part of the lo= ng term goal to block independent, third-party vendors.

Moreover, I am strongly against the control that US companies and the US go= vernment have over my daily life here in Sweden. We have only to read the n= ews about European governments (and your Canadian government) belatedly rea= lizing they need to get out of the US IT trap and manage their own digital sovereignty. We need the same for = our business and our selves, which is no easy task.

There are a few programs I install which are not co-signed. Their solution,= like yours, is to document the reason and describe the work-around, like a= t https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.freetubeapp.io/faq/__;!!KXH1hvEXyw= !djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAV= EmFoCRhl9u9Gsj4eJI$  ("FreeTube is not currently signed becau= se the licenses to sign applications for Windows are expensive and we=92d like to avoid putting a lot of money into the pro= ject." and for macOS "You can easily fix this by running the foll= owing command in the Terminal app.")

There are many reasons to stop using Microsoft tools, but I also know that = leaving might not be economically feasible. As Timothy Snyder suggests, &qu= ot;Do not obey in advance." I support your decision to not code-sign.<= br>
Best regards,

            &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;  Andrew
            &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;  dalke#%#https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://dalkescientific.com__;= !!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz= 2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9ABobWy-$


> On Jun 10, 2025, at 10:23, Grigoriy Zhurko reg_zhurko(~)https://urldef= ense.com/v3/__http://chemcraftprog.com__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteI= FC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9Pelxo8t$&nb= sp; <owner-chemistry#%#https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://ccl.net__;!!KX= H1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2Rdw= LIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9Cvfi0WN$ > wrote:
>  Currently it is rather difficult for me to add the code signing = to Chemcraft. Now I am thinking: possibly it will be useful for others if I= keep the distribution unsigned, because this politics can help small devel= opers of chemistry software (usually freeware)?
>  As far as I can see, current politics of tightening the screws w= ith the code signing in the Western world is used for suppression of the pr= ivate enterprise, and it is a part of current trends like switching from co= mmercial Gaussian to state-funded ORCA, with the main goal to keep the power and money of the 1% richest populatio= n (ruling class).
   ...
> My point is that for many small developers of scientific software (esp= ecially freeware) it is difficult to add code signing to their programs, an= d because of that, if Chemcraft remains unsigned, this will increase the ch= ances that code signing will not finally become obligatory, so common scientists will have more possibilities of de= veloping their own software. What do you think?



-=3D This is automatically added to each message by the mailing script =3D-=       https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_message= __;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-= HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9ETkc9IE$
      https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_message= __;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-= HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9ETkc9IE$
      https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/chemistry/sub_unsub.shtml__;= !!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz= 2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9AuRcEo7$

Before posting, check wait time at: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2Q= fxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9DBy= OX0d$

Job: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/jobs__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LF= cQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9= u9IwamGwk$ 
Conferences: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://server.ccl.net/chemistry/announcements/c= onferences/__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_= jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9INpujgV$

Search Messages: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/chemistry/searchccl/index.sh= tml__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyI= RI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9CFFfz5d$
      https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/spammers.txt__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!= djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMyIRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVE= mFoCRhl9u9IIdVfoK$

RTFI: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ccl.net/chemistry/aboutccl/instructi= ons/__;!!KXH1hvEXyw!djnrw5LFcQl2QfxksgteIFC4tbd0Mrl-P6hbiB35VlDCjNz_jNYLDMy= IRI-HHz2RdwLIy7iLAVEmFoCRhl9u9Butu6CQ$


--_000_SN7PR13MB6132E47B17E039F887F47B73FC6AASN7PR13MB6132namp_--