From CCLSurv@redvax1.dgsca.unam.mx  Thu Jun 23 00:22:17 1994
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From: <CCLSurv@redvax1.dgsca.unam.mx>
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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 94 22:13:26 CST
Sender: CCLSurv@redvax1.dgsca.unam.mx
To: chemistry@ccl.net
Subject: Urgent call - CCL Survey



A LAST CALL FOR THE CCL SURVEY 

A large number of netters have sent interesting, informative replies to
the Survey I sent out a few weeks ago. In the interest of having a more
perfect picture of what goes on in our community, and reporting it
better, I dare urge those who have not responded to do so. I will start
counting soon and I would feel much safer if I had an even larger sample
to work with. So:

PLEASE RESPOND TO THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE TO
CCLSurv@redvax1.dgsca.unam.mx, NOT TO THE LIST!!!

Survey on the impact of the Computational Chemistry List

THIS IS THE REAL THING, NOT THE TEST ANY MORE.

PLEASE TAKE A SHORT TIME TO READ AND ANSWER!

This is a survey on the use and impact of the Computational 
Chemistry List. Please answer the questions below; a short 
introduction follows.

 
Please respond to CCLSurv@redvax1.dgsca.unam.mx, or if you have a WWW
reader which supports forms, you are encouraged to use the Hypertext
form:
  http://www.ccl.net/cgi-bin/survey
which makes answering survey questions much easier/faster.


 
The Computational Chemistry List (CCL) has been for many a 
valuable resource and a venue for a diversity of discussions. The list 
has grown steadily in subscriber and recipient numbers, interesting 
and sometimes heated debates have taken place, and consideration 
has been given recently to previously unexplored issues like the 
perspectives for fully electronic publications and similar ones.

It may be time to ask ourselves what actual impact the CCL has had, 
is having, and can further have on our lives, our work, the way we 
use bandwidth, and the like.

To that purpose I have proposed to undertake a survey of the List 
users with the general goal of finding out facts and opinions about 
electronic services and their impact on our work. I have asked the 
List coordinator, Jan Labanowski, if this is a valid use of CCL 
bandwidth and we have agreed to ask a few more questions, relevant 
to the List's operation and its possible improvement, in order not to 
bother you with TWO surveys. In this respect, the added goals are 
to find if the List is useful as is, what and for whom is most and least 
useful, what should be scratched, and how some possible 
improvements might work out.

My own interest in the results of this survey is more on the side of 
understanding its workings and their meaning as underpinning for 
the future of academic communication. The results of the survey will 
be carefully analyzed, which may take some time, and I intend to 
publish the results of the analysis (foreseeably in an ACS 
monograph) as well as post them and make them available for 
downloading.

Some aspects of the survey may be flawed from the beginning, 
mainly as we will not (foreseeably) get response from people who 
have not subscribed or have dropped out, for any of a number of 
reasons. However, much can be learned from your answers! It is 
important that everybody respond to make the survey statistically 
sound and not biased by "aggressive minority opinion". Please let us 
know better just how the CCL is working, if and how much it has 
changed the way you work, communicate, and teach, and understand 
what is to be done next.

I beg you to answer the questions below as objectively as possible. I 
will make my best efforts to keep the responses confidential (I plan 
to share them with Jan WITHOUT RESPONDENT NAMES AND 
ADDRESSES; if you wish otherwise and say so in your answer 
message I will oblige). I will understand that you speak for your 
persons and not for your organizations unless the contrary is 
explicitly stated. All answers are nonbinding. Now look: the list is 
international, legal issues may get real tangled, so let us all assume 
that I will keep faithfully to my best knowledge of ethical and legal 
standards and we all try to get information that will benefit 
everybody, OK?

If you are impeded to respond to any of the questions because of 
considerations of liability etc. do tell me so!

Again, please address your answers/comments/questions to me and 
not to the list - lest you really want everybody to hear you!

Alejandro Pisanty  -    CCLSurv@redvax1.dgsca.unam.mx
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty, Secretary of the Advisory Council on 
Computing, UNAM, and Head of the Graduate Division, Faculty of 
Chemistry, UNAM
Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico (UNAM)
Ciudad Universitaria, 04510 Mexico DF
MEXICO

Tel. (+52-5) 622 4181, 616 1649; Fax 550 0904, 616 2010
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .

Survey on the use of the Computational Chemistry List (CCL).

Please answer with your best estimates!

In the pilot run of the survey a "closed form" for answers was 
suggested. I have preferred to retain the open form because of the 
WIDE variety of answers possible from all over the world.

The survey cannot be made too short because much valuable 
contents would be lost. If you find that you do not have time enough 
to answer all the questions, please concentrate on sections I (user 
characterization), II and III (impact), VI and VII. Section IX 
provides detailed suggestions for improvement on the list in order to 
open a discussion on that subject.

I. USER CHARACTERIZATION:

This part is intended to characterize the respondent. It is important 
to know ourselves better as a group, and so we can crossreference 
other responses against particular groups of subscribers.

 I.1) How long have you been using CCL (few months, a year, more 
than a year)?
Mark X on this line ...................................

 I.2) What is the character of your organization (e.g., for-
profit/commercial, academia, secondary shool, government, military, 
other non-profit, self-employed consultant, etc.)?

 I.3) Country where you receive the CCL messages (particularly if 
through LISTSERV and similar, which may be different from the 
subscription address):

 I.4) Type of position (e.g, undergraduate student, graduate student, 
postdoctoral associate, assistant professor, full professor, lecturer, 
reader, research scientist, senior research scientist, management, 
sales associate, consultant, etc.):

 I.5) Approximate number of employees in your entire organization 
and its main line of activity (e.g. 2000/college, 1000/pharmaceutical, 
20000/petroleum, etc.):

 I.6) Your field(s) of activity (please be specific: e.g, 
crystallographer, molecular biologist, quantum chemist, medicinal 
chemist, etc.):

 I.7) Is your work mainly theoretical, computational or 
experimental? 
Do you develop software?

 I.8) What computational chemistry methods do you use frequently 
(ab initio, molecular graphics, molecular mechanics, kinetics 
simulation, etc.)? 
What other computational work do you do frequently?:

 I.9) What computer(s) do you use to read the messages, and how 
are you connected to the network (e.g. PC via 2400 modem, Mac 
via 9600 modem, RS/6000 on Ethernet, etc.).
What is the range of network access available to you (e.g., e-mail 
only, ftp, remote logins, gopher, WWW, Usenet, etc.). 

 I.10) What computer(s) and software do you mostly use for your 
work?

 I.11) How did you learn about the list (e.g., from a friend, my thesis 
advisor, a student I supervise, from archie, by searching 
gopherspace, etc.)

 I.12) Could you briefly describe your work (say 5-10 lines):


II. CCL IMPACT ON YOUR RESEARCH/LEARNING/CAREER:


Please be as specific as you can be in answering these questions.
The answers will be used to judge if the list is a useful resource and 
to assess the way media like CCL are changing our ways.

 II.1) Please tell how, and how many times, the messages on CCL, 
answers to your CCL queries, or CCL archives helped you in your 
research.

Anecdotes and specific examples are most welcome!
 List all instances you can remember (e.g., you acquired particular 
software based on CCL messages twice, you selected computer 
hardware based on information from CCL, on three occassions you 
received needed parameters/data, five times you were directed to 
read particular paper based on CCL information, you changed your 
approach/method once based on CCL messages, comments on the 
CCL contributed to the discussion part in two of your 
papers/reports, etc.):
       
 II.2) How many times did you find about a conference via CCL and 
attended it as a result?

 II.3) Have you started a collaboration with a subscriber of the list as 
a result of exchanges on the CCL?

 II.4) Did you find a position or a candidate for the position using 
the positions.offered file in CCL archive?
 Did you seek a position in particular organization/group based on 
messages posted to the list?

 II.5) Add any comments about benefits and impacts of the list in 
your career:


III. IMPACT ON TEACHING:

Answer these questions if you are teaching or if you are involved in 
intracompany training. Please be specific and add as many comments 
as you wish.

 III.1) What subject/course do you teach, is it an 
undergraduate/graduate/professional course?

 III.2) Has the list had any impact on the contents of your courses?
 (e.g., you used materials/examples/opinions from messages or CCL 
archives in your course, you revised/created curriculum/syllabus 
based on CCL material, you suggested a graduate project based on 
CCL postings, etc.):

 III.3) Do you encourage your students to subscribe to the list, or 
forward material from the list to them?


IV. YOUR PARTICIPATION IN THE LIST:

Please supply the best estimates. We understand that they are 
approximate. Stories and examples are most welcome! They are 
becoming the oral history and lore of this trade.

 IV.1) How many questions have you posted to the list?
       How many answers or opinions did you post to the whole list?
       How many answers did you send directly the participants?

 IV.2) How many answers/opinions did you receive to your personal 
mailbox instead of list as a result of your question/opinion?
 Did you ever receive a response with the restriction "for your eyes 
only"?

 IV.3) How many people have reprimanded/flamed you for your 
posting(s) to the list? For what?
 Have you reprimanded/flamed somebody? For what?

 IV.4) What is your estimate of the portion of suitable messages, i.e., 
messages which adhere to the list rules (e.g.: 3/7, 10%)?

 IV.5) What portion of messages on the list do you find relevant for 
your own research/teaching/development/administration?
 Do you forward on occassion messages from CCL to people who 
are not subscribed?
 Did you encourage someone to subscribe?

 IV.6) How do you choose messages to read? What portion of 
messages do you delete/skip before reading based on the Subject: 
field? What portion of messages do you delete/skip after reading the 
first few lines?

 IV.7) How do you receive messages (e.g., you are subscribed to the 
list directly, you are subscribed to a local/internal list/newsgroup 
which receives messages from CCL, you are not subscribed but view 
archived messages via gopher/WWW)?

 IV.8) How frequently do you scan CCL messages and when (e.g., 
as they arrive, more than once a day, once a day in the evening, once 
a week during the weekend)? 
How much time on average do you spend reading messages?

 IV.9) Have you ever searched the CCL archives, and if not why? 
Did you access CCL archives and in what way (e.g., e-mail, ftp, 
gopher/WWW)?


V. USE OF OTHER RESOURCES

Please share all your experiences and use of resources other than 
CCL.

 V.1 What other Internet and network resources do you use and 
how heavily/frequently (e-mail, library catalogues, gopher, WWW, 
newsgroups, commercial databases, stock prices, commercial news, 
listservers/electronic-lists, electronic submissions of manuscripts to 
journals/books/conferences, etc., etc.). How much time do you 
spend on using the network resources?

 V.2 How much time do you spend on reading CCL list and CCL 
archives compared to other network resources?

 V.3 How do you rate the CCL for usefulness, benefit/effort ratio, 
etc. in comparison to other online and offline resources?

VI. MEMORABLE MOMENTS.

VI.1 What do you remember as the most useful/most pleasant/most 
unpleasant/most obnoxious event on the CCL (and/or other Internet 
services)?


VII. OTHER ISSUES.

VII.1 Please comment on the international impact of the list.

VII.2 Please comment on the choice of language of the list, its 
quality, and its level of difficulty. Do you sometimes NOT write 
because of language difficulties?

VII.3 If you are answering you obviously use the list. Can we learn 
something valuable from those who donīt?

 VII.4 Do you think the list, WWW etc. could provide for formal 
scientific/technical publication? (e.g. with formal review procedures 
and stable archives)

  VII.5) How do you see a development of networks/network 
services in the future (say, 10 years)?

VIII. PLEASE ADD WHAT WE MISSED
See also section IX: how would you improve CCL?

VIII.1 What questions/topics should have been included in this 
survey but were missed?
VIII.2 Share any thoughts concerning the CCL list which were not 
addressed in the survey.

IX. HOW WOULD YOU IMPROVE CCL?

Some specific proposals have been made to improve CCL. They are 
listed below. Speak out on your own thoughts; the proposals below 
are intended as discussion openers, not as a bias.

Provide your ideas assuming that resources are not an issue and 
everything is possible. Try to provide ideas, and methods of 
implementation, though you need not be too detailed/technical. 
Please note that some examples given here are very controversial.

 IX.1) How would you improve the list if it stayed unmoderated?
Examples (do not be suggested by them, unless you agree with them 
100%). 
      a) Split it into smaller lists: ccl-ab-initio, ccl-semiempirical, ccl-
force-fields, ccl-molecular-graphics, ccl-???. To which smaller lists 
would you subscribe yourself?
      b) Allow anonymous postings if someone chooses to do so.
      c) Restrict the scope of messages even further than in the rules.
      d) Add specific files to the archives (which?).
      e) Add additional services (which?).
      f) Each subscriber would provide a list of keywords/regular-
expressions and would receive only messages which contain/satisfy 
the keywords/regular-expressions.
      g) Allow only 10 messages a day, and queue the messages which 
are over the limit.

 IX.2) How would you improve the list if it was moderated? Please, 
share your ideas.
      For example (only an example):
       a) 24hrs/day monitoring of the list by anonymous moderators 
residing in different time zones, so the messages are essentially 
approved/rejected in a real time.
       b) provide a once a day digest of subjects and a mechanism for 
retrieval of full messages via e-mail, ftp, gopher, www.
       c) the moderator(s) beside rejecting/approving messages would 
classify them into topics (e.g., quantum chemistry, molecular 
mechanics, molecular graphics, QSAR/QSPR, hardware, drug 
design, [what topics?] and subscribers could choose which topics 
they want to receive. Which topics would you subscribe to?
       d) Provide a rotating body of volunteers in their respective 
fields, who would respond to the simple/trivial questions, forwarded 
to them by moderators (e.g., would point to a file already residing in 
CCL archives, or explain that HONDO is an ab initio program).        
       e) Split the list into "introductory" and "advanced" and 
moderator(s) will assign messages to the appropriate category.

  IX.3) Should the list be available as Usenet newsgroup? Why?

  IX.4) Should the list be monitored/censored? Why and by whom?
       Would you be willing to act as a moderator of the list, how 
much time you would contribute and under what conditions 
(remember, your answer is nonbinding, and anonymous)?



============== SURVEY END===============
     THANKS FOR YOUR KIND COLLABORATION!

(Again: please respond to CCLSurv@redvax1.dgsca.unam.mx, or WWW,
NOT TO THE LIST) !!!!!!
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
Dr. Alejandro Pisanty, Secretary of the Advisory Council on 
Computing, UNAM, and Head of the Graduate Division, Faculty of 
Chemistry, UNAM
Universidad Nacional Autonoma de Mexico (UNAM)
Ciudad Universitaria, 04510 Mexico DF
MEXICO
Tel. (+52-5) 622 4181, 616 1649; Fax 550 0904, 616 2010
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  . 

From John_Warr-1%notes@sb.com  Thu Jun 23 05:22:38 1994
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	by www.ccl.net (8.6.9/930601.1506) id FAA22292; Thu, 23 Jun 1994 05:14:53 -0400
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To: chemistry <chemistry@ccl.net>
From: John Warr-1 <John_Warr-1%notes@sb.com>
Date: 23 Jun 94 10:12:37 ES
Subject: JMR ray trace data files
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain


I sent this message to Jim Vito, author of the JMR molecular ray trace 
software. Jim suggested that I forward my message to this group. 

"Sorry to bother you and all that, but I have been "chucked" a copy of JMR to 
look over by one of my colleagues, and  a question occurs, which I suppose a 
chemist could answer, but I am d%$&d if I can find one in the building   :-)

The .coo files contain simple 3D spatial coordinates, OK?
The question is, how are these generated ? Are they (or can they be) derived 
>from an Isis draw or Chemdraw file, or are they from a set of published tables
?  I would much appreciate knowing where and how the data is obtained........."

Please reply by E-Mail as I don't have time to comb the newsgroups regularly. 
Times is 'ard    :-)
I will summarise any replies and re-post if there is interest.


                                                    John Warr,

                                            Specialist Technologies.


From 005DPJS@witsvma.wits.ac.za  Thu Jun 23 08:23:01 1994
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	by www.ccl.net (8.6.9/930601.1506) id HAA23255; Thu, 23 Jun 1994 07:26:33 -0400
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   with BSMTP id 2100; Thu, 23 Jun 94 13:27:43 RSA
Date:         Thu, 23 Jun 94 13:24:04 RSA
From: Daniel <005DPJS@witsvma.wits.ac.za>
Subject:      Num. Sol. of Schrodinger Equation
To: chemistry@ccl.net


Dear Netters
            Does anyone know where I can get a Fortran program for
solving the Radial Schrodinger equation numerically to high accuracy.
Thanks
Daniel

Physics Department, University of the Witwatersrand
Johannesburg, South Africa.

From smb@smb.chem.niu.edu  Thu Jun 23 11:22:41 1994
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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 94 09:26:57 -0500
From: smb@smb.chem.niu.edu (Steven Bachrach)
Message-Id: <9406231426.AA05806@smb.chem.niu.edu>
To: CHEMISTRY@ccl.net
Subject: Electronic Computational Chemistry Conference Announcement


Hello all,

We would like to announce the first

ELECTRONIC COMPUTATIONAL CHEMISTRY CONFERENCE (ECCC)

The conference will be held November 7-18, 1994, entirely
online, making use of the world-wide web (WWW) for transmitting
and viewing the papers and a discussion list for communicating
questions and comments about the papers. 

Some Dates of interest:

   September 20, 1994 - Abstracts of Papers due 
   October 28, 1994 - Final papers due 
   November 4, 1994 - Final day to register for the conference 
   November 7, 1994 - Conference Begins 
   November 18, 1994 - Conference Ends

Everyone is encouraged to participate in some form, either as a
presenter or just to view and comment on the proceedings. Those
of you without full internet access will still be able to
participate, as the papers will be available by anonymous ftp,
along with WWW access.

Complete information on the conference (including how to register,
how to create and submit a paper, etc.) are available by three
means:

WWW-URL: http://hackberry.chem.niu.edu:70/0/ECCCinformation.html

gopher: hackberry.chem.niu.edu port 70

anonymous ftp: hackberry.chem.niu.edu as /pub/ECCCinformation.txt

We are pursuing the possibility of publishing the papers and 
discussions, but nothing has been confirmed at this time.

Any comments, questions, or suggestions are welcome! Please send 
them to me at smb@smb.chem.niu.edu.

Thanks,

Steve
Steven Bachrach				
Department of Chemistry
Northern Illinois University
DeKalb, Il 60115			Phone: (815)753-6863
smb@smb.chem.niu.edu			Fax:   (815)753-4802



From John_Warr-1%notes@sb.com  Thu Jun 23 12:22:32 1994
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To: chemistry <chemistry@ccl.net>
From: John Warr-1 <John_Warr-1%notes@sb.com>
Date: 23 Jun 94 16:23:21 ES
Subject: JMR
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain


Hi there all

Thanks for the response. About 10 minutes after I pposted, it occured to me to 
look at the .MOL files generated by Isis draw.......and guess what       :-)

Thanks all the same Andy. :-)

John 


From chen@agouron.com  Thu Jun 23 14:22:34 1994
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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 94 11:13:43 -0700
From: chen@agouron.com (Chris Chen)
Message-Id: <9406231813.AA02723@turkey>
To: CHEMISTRY@ccl.net
Subject: help needed with SEAL program


Dear Netters:

	Currently I am doing some tests on SEAL program. 
	The format of dat file is somehow strange to me since
	it is not exactly same as MDL format or MOL ( both 
	old MOL and new MOL2 format ). 
	Can sb give me data file with SEAL format for my test?
	Any help is appreciated.  

Regards,

Chris
chen@agouron.com


 



From sling@euclid.chem.washington.edu  Thu Jun 23 14:25:19 1994
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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1994 10:27:48 -0700
From: sling@euclid.chem.washington.edu (Song Ling)
Message-Id: <9406231727.AA03284@euclid.chem.washington.edu>
To: 005DPJS@witsvma.wits.ac.za, chemistry@ccl.net
Subject: Re:  CCL:Num. Sol. of Schrodinger Equation


Try:
M.D. Feit
L-296 
Lawrence Livermore National Lab
PO Box 808
LIvermore, CA 94550 USA
Phone: (510) 422-4128
or J.A. Fleck, Jr. at the same address.  There was a paper by the above
two authors and M. Hermann on the discrete variable representation (FFT -
Split operator) method of the Radial Schrodinger equation for the H atom,
as I remember.   -Song Ling

From mayoung@starfish.chem.wesleyan.edu  Thu Jun 23 17:22:36 1994
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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 94 16:44:00 -0400
From: Matthew Young <mayoung@starfish.chem.wesleyan.edu>
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To: chemistry@ccl.net
Subject: Help finding charge fitting program.
Reply-To: mayoung@rose.chem.wesleyan.edu


Hello,

I am looking for a program and I am wondering whether anyone on the net  
might know where I can find source code to solve the following problem:

I have a fixed number of atomic sites of unknown charge.  I would like the  
program to find a unique solution for the charge values at these sites  
given the electrostatic potentials around them.


Thank you very much for any help anyone can offer.

Matthew Young <mayoung@rose.chem.wesleyan.edu>

From hurst@hyper.hyper.com  Thu Jun 23 17:31:22 1994
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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1994 17:21:26 -0400
From: hurst@hyper.hyper.com (Graham Hurst)
Message-Id: <9406232121.AA13309@hyper.hyper.com.hyper.com>
To: chemistry@ccl.net
Subject: Announcement of HyperNMR


This is a commercial announcement following CCL rules (i.e. <=25 lines).

Hypercube Inc. is pleased to announce HyperNMR, a software package for the a
priori prediction of one-dimensional proton, C13, N15, F19 or P31 NMR spectra
for molecular systems involving the elements hydrogen through argon.

HyperNMR can load a molecular system from a Z-matrix file or HIN file.  It does
not require HyperChem, but systems can also be loaded directly from HyperChem.
The system can be displayed several ways, including shaded ball & stick.

NMR calculations occur in two steps.  The first computes magnetic shielding and
nuclear spin coupling constants for any selected nuclei, using semi-empirical
quantum mechanics.  Accuracy is improved over traditional semi-empirical
methods through the use of atom "types" instead of elements, as in molecular
mechanics.  The second step calculates NMR frequencies and intensities from the
results of step one (or from user-specified shieldings and couplings).
HyperNMR results, in tabular or graphical form, can be copied into other
Windows applications via the Windows clipboard.  The algorithms implemented
in HyperNMR greatly reduce the computational time compared to earlier a priori
methods and offer a tool for predicting NMR parameters and spectra for
molecules from small organic systems to subsets of proteins.

HyperNMR is a program for Microsoft Windows, requiring at least a 386 with
math chip and 4 MB RAM.  The list price is US$ 995 (US$ 695 academic and
government).  For more information, send email to info@hyper.com.
------------
Graham Hurst (hurst@hyper.com)
Hypercube Inc, 7-419 Phillip St, Waterloo, Ont, Canada N2L 3X2 (519)725-4040
Info requests to: info@hyper.com    Support questions to: support@hyper.com
Email group: Send "subscribe hyperchem" to hyperchem-request@hyper.com

From D.Winkler@chem.csiro.au  Thu Jun 23 21:22:39 1994
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Date: Fri, 24 Jun 94 10:27:26 EST
From: "Dr. Dave Winkler" <D.Winkler@chem.csiro.au>
Subject: 'Successes' in molecular design
To: chminf-l@iubvm.ucs.indiana.edu, chemistry@ccl.net
X-Mailer: LeeMail 2.0.4
Message-Id: <AA30658F@chem.csiro.au>


Some time ago someone asked for a list of examples where molecular design/comp 
chem methods have made tangible contributions to the development of  commercial 
bioactive compounds.  The discussion which followed pointed out that these 
methods are tools which assist the R&D, not black boxes which generate 
commercial products  by themselves.  Nevertheless I would be grateful if someone 
could provide a summary of the results of the survey.  I guess the neuraminidase 
inhibitor work resulting in influenza drugs in Phase II trials is a classic 
example.  Are there any commercial successes?

Cheers,

Dave
__________________________________________________________________________

   Dr. David A. Winkler                        Voice: 61-3-542-2244      
   Principal Research Scientist                Fax:   61-3-543-8160      
   CSIRO Division of Chemicals and Polymers
   Private Bag 10       
   Clayton, Australia.

   "Life is what happens to you while you're making other plans"


