From fh@oberon.qc.ag-berlin.mpg.de Sat Jun 25 13:23:08 1994 Received: from oberon.qc.ag-berlin.mpg.de for fh@oberon.qc.ag-berlin.mpg.de by www.ccl.net (8.6.9/930601.1506) id MAA23749; Sat, 25 Jun 1994 12:34:07 -0400 Received: by oberon.qc.ag-berlin.mpg.de (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA14367; Sat, 25 Jun 1994 18:33:50 +0200 From: fh@oberon.qc.ag-berlin.mpg.de (Frank Haase) Message-Id: <9406251633.AA14367@oberon.qc.ag-berlin.mpg.de> Subject: YSN_response To: chemistry@ccl.net (ccl) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 18:33:50 +0200 (MESZ) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1764 Hi foreign colleagues in the states, I'm from germany and read the comments of Mr. Boehm. I fully agree with him especially in one important issue. What a pain it must be to listen and read the awkward english of the aliens ! But its only a feeling I have .... some words of his text look strange ... It would be interesting to know where he comes from. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... in the absence of foreign contributions. I have also noticed how poorly written many of those foreign contribution are. One has to wonder, if a group of (usually 2-3) researchers can not construct an English sentence without gross gramitical errors, how can they possibly be ~~~~~~~~~~ effective communicators. I know what it is like to sit through a university class (THAT I PAID GOOD MONEY TO ATTEND) with a foreign instructor that was basically impossible to understand. (Why even go through the motions of a lecture: just hand the students a book and let them compete!) Of coarse, communication can be just as ~~~~~~~~~ important in an industrial setting where one has to participate in ... and writing, but also about reading and listening. It will take a real solid arguement to convince that this barrier does not radically ~~~~~~~~~ hinder ones ability to learn a difficult subject. Next, the statement implies that the immagrants will not export a sizable fraction of their ~~~~~~~~~~ pay etc. back to their homeland: I have observed the exact opposite, ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- frank haase fh@oberon.qc.ag-berlin.mpg.de ps: immagrants, don't wori - be hepi ! From DSMITH@uoft02.utoledo.edu Sat Jun 25 14:23:13 1994 Received: from uoft02.utoledo.edu for DSMITH@uoft02.utoledo.edu by www.ccl.net (8.6.9/930601.1506) id NAA23936; Sat, 25 Jun 1994 13:32:30 -0400 Received: from UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU by UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU (PMDF V4.3-7 #5345) id <01HDYLB8XNTI000CCT@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>; Sat, 25 Jun 1994 13:31:59 EST Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 13:31:59 -0500 (EST) From: "DR. DOUGLAS A. SMITH, UNIVERSITY OF TOLEDO" Subject: jobs and "protectionism" To: chemistry@ccl.net Message-id: <01HDYLB8XNTK000CCT@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU> X-Envelope-to: chemistry@ccl.net X-VMS-To: CHEMISTRY MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ah, thinly veiled prejudice, racism, cultural/religious bias all smell so sweet, even electronically. The problem is not US immigration policy. The problem is people. Some people are prejudiced, some are not willing to fight against unreasonable quotas, some are paying back favors to former mentors, some just don't realize the situation. Surely there are hundreds more types of people on every side of this issue. Unfortunately, some people don't remember that the Nazis and KKK used and still use these same kinds of arguments to further their own brand of hatred. I was always taught that scientists, and "intellectuals" in general, were the people who were above all of that garbage. I have learned first hand that what I was taught is not true, not only by this recent discussion but by (personal) politics and events during the past few years. Let's face it, the current (and future) job situation is the result of a complex and extensive set of causative factors. To start a pogrom against foreign scientists could and most likely would lead to far more serious and undesirable consequences of much broader impact. At the risk of sounding trite, the international scientific community is one that should transend national and ideological boundaries. Maybe if Americans were, IMHO, less chauvanistic (in the original meaning), we would all be better off. Maybe we should all study history for a while. Douglas A. Smith (WATCH FOR CHANGES IN THIS .SIG IN THE NEAR FUTURE) Assistant Professor, Department of Chemistry Center for Drug Design and Development and Chairman-elect, ACS Division of Computers in Chemistry The University of Toledo Toledo, OH 43606-3390 voice 419-537-2116 fax 419-537-4033 email dsmith@uoft02.utoledo.edu From aiba@volta.vmsmail.ethz.ch Sat Jun 25 15:23:10 1994 Received: from bernina.ethz.ch for aiba@volta.vmsmail.ethz.ch by www.ccl.net (8.6.9/930601.1506) id OAA24218; Sat, 25 Jun 1994 14:35:05 -0400 Message-Id: <199406251835.OAA24218@www.ccl.net> Received: from VOLTA.vmsmail.ethz.ch by bernina.ethz.ch id <28155-0@bernina.ethz.ch>; Sat, 25 Jun 1994 20:35:04 +0200 X-Vms-To: ETHZ::"chemistry@ccl.net" To: chemistry@ccl.net From: aiba@volta.vmsmail.ethz.ch (Aiaz Bakassov, Phys. Chem., ETH Zurich) Subject: YSN_response Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 20:35:04 +0200 Dear netters, I hope that the discussion in the style chosen by Mr. Boehm won't last long. Let's try to abstain from personal attacks like allegations that someone wrote/published a paper with scarcely admissible English. It might quite happen that the scientific value of the paper was okay but the author just started to learn English (common situation with Soviet scientists). After all, the editors found that the paper must be published, so, Mr. Boehm, kindly direct your suggestions to editors. Another thing: if Mr.Boehm was unhappy with the instructor he mentioned, I think he was free not to pay any money and to choose either to read the literature himself or to take another course. But again, I hope we should not go into the investigation of somebody's life counting how many faults someone did (everyone does..). With Frank Haase's ironical response, in which mistypings in Mr. Boehm's message were carefully counted and displayed, and the question "where HE is from?" (caused, I guess, by German sounding surname of Mr.Boehm ) was in fact risen, it (the discussion I mean) might develop in the so undesirable direction of further mutual personal attacks. Let's kindly stop it. This is a SCIENTIFIC network. We are used to some criteria what is admissible in SCIENTIFIC discussion and what is not. Then, if Mr. Boehm has an ARGUMENT (i.e. an established fact with the REFERENCE to the RECOGNIZED SOURCE, a formula, a theory, an experiment and whatever else is used in science) let him present it. If he presents such a SCIENTIFIC argument, I hope that those who will argue will also use SCIENTIFIC argumentation. I hope to watch an interesting discussion. Myself, I rather disagree with Mr. Boehm, but I think he'll get a number of responses which will contain much more than I could say on the topic. I do ask not to count misprints and errors in this my message, for English is NOT my mothertongue. For me it's rather a tool for communication in science, and I also had a period of natural difficulties in this totally foreign to me language. Anticipating interesting SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENTS, Ayaz Bakasov. From ccl@ccl.net Sat Jun 25 17:23:14 1994 Received: for ccl@ccl.net by www.ccl.net (8.6.9/930601.1506) id QAA24843; Sat, 25 Jun 1994 16:34:02 -0400 From: Computational Chemistry Message-Id: <199406252034.QAA24843@www.ccl.net> Subject: FROM COORDINATOR: Immigration not to be discussed on CCL To: chemistry@ccl.net Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 16:34:02 -0400 (EDT) Cc: berry@ccl.net (Robby Berry), jkl@ccl.net (Jan Labanowski), chemistry-request@ccl.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2997 To all subscribers of the Computational Chemistry List: Short version: The discussion of immigration issues, job protectionism, and other such issues as raised by the YSN post is hereby forbidden. Those who continue to post on this topic are in violation of CCL's rules, and they will be unsubscribed immediately. Long version: I am currently serving as the list coordinator for CCL, as Jan is away in Krakow right now. Jan left instructions for every possible problem that might occur on the list. Or so I thought. When I read the original post, I had a feeling it would cause trouble, but I decided to let it pass and hope that it would attract little or no attention. Unfortunately, an increasing number of increasingly hostile messages have appeared in response to the YSN post. CCL's rules clearly forbid topics which are not related to computational chemistry. Since the YSN article focussed on PhD's in all areas of science, and not just chemistry, I conclude that the YSN article is not related to computational chemistry. Further, many of the reponses to that post have taken the form of personal attacks, which are also forbidden by CCL's rules. I also note that CCL is international in scope; I doubt that the US' immigration policy is of much interest to those in India, Japan or New Zealand. For these reasons, I have decided to ban further discussion of the YSN article. I confess that I am not entirely comfortable with this decision. I believe strongly in freedom of speech, and the role of censor is not one that I enjoy. But CCL is not the proper forum for discussions of this nature. There are plenty of USENET groups and mailing lists that would be more appropriate. And of course, there is private e-mail if all else fails. Please remember that freedom of speech does not guarantee a forum for discussing your views. I cannot forcibly prevent you from expressing your views, but neither am I obligated to allow you to use CCL's resources for purposes other than those which CCL was established for. Some of you will not be happy with this decision. Please do *not* post complaints about my decision to the list. This will also be treated as a violation of the list rules. You *may* send e-mail to me, if you wish, at berry@ccl.net; however, it is unlikely that I will change my mind. You may also send mail to Jan at jkl@ccl.net. If, when he returns, he decides that my decision was the wrong one, I shall make an apology to all list members. But given both the letter and the spirit of CCL's rules, I believe that my decision is the right one. Please note that there will be *no* penalty for those who have already posted in response to the YSN article. I will also allow a short "grace period" for those who sent YSN-related messages before reading this message. Thank you very much for your cooperation. I hope that CCL will continue to be a valuable resource for all of you. Sincerely, Rob Berry Associate List Coordinator, CCL berry@ccl.net From ccl@ccl.net Sat Jun 25 21:23:15 1994 Received: for ccl@ccl.net by www.ccl.net (8.6.9/930601.1506) id UAA26206; Sat, 25 Jun 1994 20:39:32 -0400 From: Computational Chemistry Message-Id: <199406260039.UAA26206@www.ccl.net> Subject: FROM COORDINATOR: Alternate forum for YSN discussion To: chemistry@ccl.net Date: Sat, 25 Jun 1994 20:39:32 -0400 (EDT) Cc: berry@ccl.net (Robby Berry), jkl@ccl.net (Jan Labanowski), chemistry-request@ccl.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 948 To all members of the Computational Chemistry List: Those who wish to continue discussing the YSN article may do so using the forum provided below. I am grateful to Mary Ellen Scott for allowing the use of the YSN mailing list for this discussion. Sincerely, Rob Berry, associate list coordinator Forwarded message: > May I suggest an alternative for the YSN topics. Please submit your > comments or post to ysn@ren.salk.edu > I volunteer as ysn joblist adm and invite all who would like to continue > the discussion to have their say on YSN. There is no membership fee and > to join simply post to ysn-adm@ren.salk.edu. Membership is not required > to post your opinion. I would ask you to find out more about our group > before you make decisions about us based on one post. I will send you a > little more information if you would like to email me directly. > > Thanks > Mary Ellen Scott > email: mes@atlas.chemistry.uakron.edu