How to keep a particular state

From: "yu" <yu : at : infiniti.wavefun.com>
Subject: How to keep a particular state
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 09:25:47 -0800
 On Nov 16, 10:44am, Herbert Homeier t4720 wrote:
 > Subject: CCL:G:[Q]: How to keep a particular state in G94?
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > yu (yu : at : infiniti.wavefun.com) wrote (Wed, 15 Nov 1995 07:57:54
 -0800):
 > > On Nov 15, 11:29am, <bcnlma : at : hkpucc.polyu.edu.hk> wrote:
 > > > Subject: CCL:G:[Q]: How to keep a particular state in G94?
 > > > Dear all,
 > > >
 > > > I had a question that I hope someone on the list can help. I am
 > > > doing some calculations on small transition metal compound using
 Gaussian
 > > > 94. I carried out an SCF calculation which gives me a particular
 state
 but
 > > > I would like to calculate a DIFFERENT state. After using
 > > > guess=(read,alter) to get to the state I like, the SCF brings it
 back to
 > > > the original state that I do not want.
 > > >
 > > > My question is: is there anyway I can get Gaussian to keep the
 same
 > > > state from my guess=(read,alter) job?
 > > >
 > > > yours sincerely,
 > > > Ida N. L. Ma
 > > >
 >  ...
 > >
 > > Dear Dr. Ma,
 > >
 > > The reason causing your problem isn't program you used, but a basic
 theoretical
 > > one. If the excited state you want to get has same symmetry with
 ground
 state,
 >
 ========================================================================
 > > according to the Variational Principle (SCF bases on the principle),
 if you
 >
 ======
 > > only do One-Determinant calculation, the energy you get is always the
 ground
 >
 ============================================================================
              > state's. To study your problem, you need to use MCSCF or
 sophisticated CI
 >   =======
 > > methods.
 > >
 > > Good luck!
 > >
 > > Jianguo Yu
 > >
 >
 >
 > Is the underlined sentence really true? As far as I remember the
 > excited states of the same symmetry as the ground state are saddle
 > points of the functional that is minimized in a variational calculation
 > (as are the excited states of the other symmetries). That would imply
 > that an SCF calculation can converge to a particular excited state of
 > ground state symmetry if the initial guess is close enough.  (in
 > principle, not paying attention to rounding errors etc.)
 >
 > I faintly remember that some people did a similar thing in DFT to
 > obtain excited states from one-determinant wave functions.
 >
 > If this saddlepoint approach is in principle ok, the main problem would
 > be to get accurate initial guesses. In a situation where many excited
 > states are close together in energy or closely coupled (like in many
 > transition metal compounds), this is expected to be rather difficult.
 >
 > By the way: The above should not be interpreted in the sense that I
 > recommend not to use MCSCF / CI.  8^)
 >
 > Best regards
 >
 > Herbert Homeier
 > --------------------------------------------------------------
 > Dr. Herbert H. H. Homeier
 > Institut fuer Physikalische und Theoretische Chemie
 > Universitaet Regensburg
 > D-93040 Regensburg, Germany
 > Phone: +49-941-943 4720                FAX  : +49-941-943 2305
 > email: na.hhomeier : at : na-net.ornl.gov
 > <A HREF="http://rchs1.uni-regensburg.de/%7Ec5008/";>HOMEPAGE</A>
 > ---------------------------------------------------------------
 >
 >
 >
 >
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 >-- End of excerpt from Herbert Homeier t4720
 I may little insist my understanding to the priciple of quantum chemistry. In a
 thermo- chemical reaction (Almost all QC studies for reactive mechanism are for
 thermo- reaction.), the STATE will be kept. If you optimize the geometry, you
 can get minimum (Reactant, Produncts and Intermediate (if exists)) and Saddle
 point(s). All of these points are in same STATE, the ground state. Practically,
 if two geometries are apart away (For example, one is close to reactant,
 another is the initial guess to transition state.), it isn't easy to know if
 they are in same state. IRC method may help this. If IRC can connect them, they
 are in same state, otherwise they are not.
 If there exist some programs which are smart enough to get "a particular
 excited state of groud state symmetry", I bet they have to make some
 specific
 treatments to Variational Priciple.
 Best wishes!
 Jianguo Yu
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